Would you swap it?

[MrVweegit]

So, my stang is down again with the problems of an aging engine platform and car that hasn't seen much use in a few years. Blew out a soft plug, behind the driver's side motor mount. Heater hoses are dry and brittle. Actually, most of the rubber hoses need a going through. Rear main seal leaks, small pan gasket leak. I've pulled the motor to give the engine a thorough going-through, and stumbled across a 90 351w on the cheap.

If I swap it in, I'll be gaining 20 cubes, at the expense of...I don't know what, yet. I know I'll need a new lower intake and headers. I remain unsure of whether or not I can bolt my AOD up to this thing - I know I'll need to worry about the difference in engine balance, too.

What other problems can I expect? What about engine management, IE computer/Mass Air? Wiring harness?

Looking for reliable ideas/hints/advice from you guys.

[DSTURBD]

Originally Posted by MrVweegit

So, my stang is down again with the problems of an aging engine platform and car that hasn't seen much use in a few years. Blew out a soft plug, behind the driver's side motor mount. Heater hoses are dry and brittle. Actually, most of the rubber hoses need a going through. Rear main seal leaks, small pan gasket leak. I've pulled the motor to give the engine a thorough going-through, and stumbled across a 90 351w on the cheap.

If I swap it in, I'll be gaining 20 cubes, at the expense of...I don't know what, yet. I know I'll need a new lower intake and headers. I remain unsure of whether or not I can bolt my AOD up to this thing - I know I'll need to worry about the difference in engine balance, too.

What other problems can I expect? What about engine management, IE computer/Mass Air? Wiring harness?

Looking for reliable ideas/hints/advice from you guys.

First off, the trans will bolt up with zero problems. The things that will have to change going from a 302 based motor to a 351 based motor are:

1. Lower intake
2. Lines attaching the two fuel lines on the intake.
3. Distributor (get a stock replacement from AutoZone or the likes)
4. Headers
5. Oil pan
6. Most likely a new hood due to the increased deck height, but I know some that have made it work with the stocker.

Depending on what the motor is balance to (28oz or 50oz), will dictate the balancer and flex plate used..

I have a 357w with an AODe (4r75w) in my car... I'm sure there are other small pieces I am not thinking of currently, but that is the bulk of it..

BTW...if you have the extra $$, pick up a 408 or 427 kit...

Okay, to now deal with the additional cubes...You would need new injectors and mas air meter and either have a chip burned, use an Anderson PMS (piggy back system), or go to a complete stand alone system (the route I took) and ditch the mass air. You will not need to modify the wiring harness if using a chip or Anderson PMS...of course a different story if you go stand alone. The stand alone has the largest learning curve, but offers the most versatility and pays for itself if you have to have the car tuned a couple times (I know most tuners charge around $500 for a chip and tune).

A lot of it depends on your intentions with the car...

Even with the headaches I've endured (many self inflicted) with this project, I would still have swapped out to the 351... So to answer your original question, YES..I would swap it!! The additional strength of the block and addition cubes sold me!

[Cream Puff]

hell no.. you arnt going to gain much power, might even lose some depending on how warm your 331 build was, you arnt at the point where you need any extra strength power wise if you use it stock.. so basically all you are going to gain is headaches and weight up front.


boo.

[nmcgrawj]

He already has a 331...so a 351 isnt going to outgrow his current injectors/maf (unless they are already about to be maxed out).

[MrVweegit]

I already have injectors and MAF for 30#, due to the nitrous. Not maxing them out with a babydick 75 shot on the 331.

All trick flow upper end parts. I believe they make a 351 lower that will accept my Track Heat upper.

Using A9L computer with a Moates Quarterhorse\laptop currently. Just wasn't sure I'd be able to use it behind the 351.

351 is complete top to bottom, in good working order. Won't need a distributor, pan, pump, etc, 50oz balance. 331 is 28oz. Already have the fuel rails.

I'm not worried about headaches. The car is already a headache, but at least I have two lifts to work on.

My only real head-scratcher is an answer as to why I'd need new headers. Using Hedman longtubes currently - will they need to be longer for clearance, due to the higher deck?

I already run a 2.5" cowl hood because I needed to run a spacer to clear the TFS valve covers. I'll have to do a little measuring to make sure everything will fit with a taller deck height.

I don't have any real set goals for the car, it's a weekend warrior that sees the track once in awhile. It's not very DD friendly with the cam and high stall (though the tbrake is fun at redlights :cough. Just maybe leaving myself room to grow.

[Cream Puff]

worse balance, heavier, probably lower compression.. no thx

just run a bigger nitrous hit if you want a little more power, you wont break anything yet if your sh!t is built properly, i havnt broke mine on 100 shot and my 347 makes more n/a id assume

[MrVweegit]

Originally Posted by Cream Puff

worse balance, heavier, probably lower compression.. no thx

just run a bigger nitrous hit if you want a little more power, you wont break anything yet if your sh!t is built properly, i havnt broke mine on 100 shot and my 347 makes more n/a id assume

Yeah, I'm getting it from both sides of the fence. About half of everybody just tells me to stick by the 331 and save the time and effort.

The other half is all "OMFG cyooobz".

[Cream Puff]

Originally Posted by MrVweegit

Yeah, I'm getting it from both sides of the fence. About half of everybody just tells me to stick by the 331 and save the time and effort.

The other half is all "OMFG cyooobz".

20 cubes dosnt mean a lot, when you are going to rev slower, have lower compression, heavier rotating assembly, heavier engine block (right up front where it does the most harm), less room under the hood, need diffrent intake/headers etc.

funk all that, modo is making like 800 out of a 'little' 331.. the 351 or bust bandwagon is retarded

[DSTURBD]

Originally Posted by Cream Puff

20 cubes dosnt mean a lot, when you are going to rev slower, have lower compression, heavier rotating assembly, heavier engine block (right up front where it does the most harm), less room under the hood, need diffrent intake/headers etc.

funk all that, modo is making like 800 out of a 'little' 331.. the 351 or bust bandwagon is retarded

Right, and Modo has an aftermarket block too... You would never see me put aftermarket internals in a stock 302 block. We ALL want to step up time and time again...why limit your capability?? As already mentioned, no you won't pick up much by going to 351ci, that is why I suggested going 408 or 427...

[modo]

you will need all new brackets for the accessories etc

nothing wrong with more displacement but here is my worthless .02

if your gonna go through the mess of swapping to a 351 forget that idea and do a 385 based motor (460)

500+ cubes and it would probably be cheaper if not the same money

[MrVweegit]

Originally Posted by modo

you will need all new brackets for the accessories etc

nothing wrong with more displacement but here is my worthless .02

if your gonna go through the mess of swapping to a 351 forget that idea and do a 385 based motor (460)

500+ cubes and it would probably be cheaper if not the same money

I picked up a '90 Bronco for 400 bucks. I don't know if I can get a whole running motor cheaper.

Looking back, I should have gone with a 460 (514ci) that I really wanted back in '03. Live and learn.

[modo]

Originally Posted by MrVweegit

I picked up a '90 Bronco for 400 bucks. I don't know if I can get a whole running motor cheaper.

Looking back, I should have gone with a 460 (514ci) that I really wanted back in '03. Live and learn.

400 bucks but that 351 makes less power then a stock 302 and weighs a lot more. only thing worth keeping is the block, crank and rods and even then i would change them out anyways for something better / longer stroke. in the long run it will cost you more to do the 351 and at that point you could have a killer bbf

cheaper and easier imo to just stick with the 8.2" stuff

[MrVweegit]

Originally Posted by modo

400 bucks but that 351 makes less power then a stock 302 and weighs a lot more. only thing worth keeping is the block, crank and rods and even then i would change them out anyways for something better / longer stroke. in the long run it will cost you more to do the 351 and at that point you could have a killer bbf

cheaper and easier imo to just stick with the 8.2" stuff

Point taken. Thats roughly the feedback I'm getting from the local old man club, too. Gonna just skip this one and stick by the 331.

Thanks for the input, fellas.

[DSTURBD]

Originally Posted by modo

400 bucks but that 351 makes less power then a stock 302 and weighs a lot more. only thing worth keeping is the block, crank and rods and even then i would change them out anyways for something better / longer stroke. in the long run it will cost you more to do the 351 and at that point you could have a killer bbf

cheaper and easier imo to just stick with the 8.2" stuff

Well, a stock 351w has about 50-60 lbs over the 302. With aluminum heads, a 351W is basically the same weight as a stock 302. A 460 is about 250lbs heavier than the 302... I would personally rather have a 427, miss out on 33 cubes...but save the 200+ lbs off of the nose of the car.... Just me..

[modo]

Originally Posted by DSTURBD

Well, a stock 351w has about 50-60 lbs over the 302. With aluminum heads, a 351W is basically the same weight as a stock 302. A 460 is about 250lbs heavier than the 302... I would personally rather have a 427, miss out on 33 cubes...but save the 200+ lbs off of the nose of the car.... Just me..

yeah but your comparing a 351 stroker to a stock 460. my point was if your gonna go through the mess of building a stroker 351 then scratch that idea and go stroker 460 like a 557. plenty of aluminum heads out there for the bbf and hell most of them on pump gas are making 700/700+ on mild builds. majority of them are over 800 NA and it would cost about the same

[DSTURBD]

Originally Posted by modo

yeah but your comparing a 351 stroker to a stock 460. my point was if your gonna go through the mess of building a stroker 351 then scratch that idea and go stroker 460 like a 557. plenty of aluminum heads out there for the bbf and hell most of them on pump gas are making 700/700+ on mild builds. majority of them are over 800 NA and it would cost about the same

True, but 200lbs still seems like a lot weight on the nose for a street car..imo. Bad ass for a race car, no doubt!!!

[Cream Puff]

Originally Posted by DSTURBD

Well, a stock 351w has about 50-60 lbs over the 302. With aluminum heads, a 351W is basically the same weight as a stock 302. A 460 is about 250lbs heavier than the 302... I would personally rather have a 427, miss out on 33 cubes...but save the 200+ lbs off of the nose of the car.... Just me..

psst its still way heavier than a 302 with the same mods.. adding alum heads to the 351 but not the 302 to make your argument ftl

[342LX]

when it comes to balance it all depends on how much mallory you want and how deep you want the holes in the counterweights drilled. best to consult the shop that will balance it out.

[DSTURBD]

Originally Posted by Cream Puff

psst its still way heavier than a 302 with the same mods.. adding alum heads to the 351 but not the 302 to make your argument ftl

Well, I used that because I went from a stock 302 (I mean BONE stock), to an aluminum headed 351W due to the $$ being the same to build the 351W...and of course I built one with aluminum heads, so the weight difference canceled out...

[PaxtonPwr]

The only logic in the swap would be future potential, since he has a stock block 331. By swapping the 351 if it is in good shape with decent compression and leakdown tests he will have the advantage of making and handling more power later anyway with same bolt ons. Weight is a moot point, you can alway get some weight out a stang lol. The distributers are different, the intakes as you know (which you can buy a trick flow 351 lower for same upper you have and sell old 302 one thats what i did before. ) The swap pan n pickup from ford is cheap, 28 balance most likely whatever dont matter at this low hp point lol. The swap headers will be needed unless you want to hacker up your tunnel, firewall, etc.. But if you doing the swap for clearnace and all other reasons and benefits that are good you should do what it takes (even if it means hitting the street corners on your knees) and gather that 250 bucks or so for a qa1 tubular K and throw it in with the stock springs, a arms, etc.. and if you have trick flow heads already by all means do it cubes and tubular would be sweet....






PS 8.2 deck = poop
10.2deck = skeet skeet skeet

[Cream Puff]

Originally Posted by PaxtonPwr

The only logic in the swap would be future potential, since he has a stock block 331. By swapping the 351 if it is in good shape with decent compression and leakdown tests he will have the advantage of making and handling more power later anyway with same bolt ons. Weight is a moot point, you can alway get some weight out a stang lol. The distributers are different, the intakes as you know (which you can buy a trick flow 351 lower for same upper you have and sell old 302 one thats what i did before. ) The swap pan n pickup from ford is cheap, 28 balance most likely whatever dont matter at this low hp point lol. The swap headers will be needed unless you want to hacker up your tunnel, firewall, etc.. But if you doing the swap for clearnace and all other reasons and benefits that are good you should do what it takes (even if it means hitting the street corners on your knees) and gather that 250 bucks or so for a qa1 tubular K and throw it in with the stock springs, a arms, etc.. and if you have trick flow heads already by all means do it cubes and tubular would be sweet....






PS 8.2 deck = poop
10.2deck = skeet skeet skeet

i love how 8.2 decks were the cats azz when you had one, and now they are poop

[modo]

Originally Posted by Cream Puff

i love how 8.2 decks were the cats azz when you had one, and now they are poop

thats what happens when you put a 700 cubic in bbc in your car. you become biased

[PaxtonPwr]

they ARE tits (not cats azz) aftermarket if you happy with up to 1000hp or so- but yes with so many big cube streeters now the prices have become hard to beat. stock wise 351 block is way to go , 8.2 stock block is what it is, a great foundation for up to 500rwhp. But when you got 2011 GT's cracking out 400 to the wheels n/a stock the fox crowd will be going bigger cube or aftermarket real quick to stay as the core base of the mustang contingent >>

You will see the cubic benefit when i post up the data we get from the latest vortech monster in the works.... just got the ups # and invoice for the twin V24 Ztrims going to the geardrive manufacturer for a 648ci 10.5W project I get the honor of doing with vortech, psi, and my boy vinny. 3000+hp mmmm


PS you think i still dnt have a lil 8.2 based sumtin sumtin going in the zephyr nothing but love for the sbf's- what else i going to do with this little Xtrim I never got rid of with SBF brackets... nigha pleeze >>>

[95 Bullitt]

Originally Posted by PaxtonPwr

PS you think i still dnt have a lil 8.2 based sumtin sumtin going in the zephyr nothing but love for the sbf's- what else i going to do with this little Xtrim I never got rid of with SBF brackets... nigha pleeze >>>

[modo]

Originally Posted by PaxtonPwr

they ARE tits (not cats azz) aftermarket if you happy with up to 1000hp or so- but yes with so many big cube streeters now the prices have become hard to beat. stock wise 351 block is way to go , 8.2 stock block is what it is, a great foundation for up to 500rwhp. But when you got 2011 GT's cracking out 400 to the wheels n/a stock the fox crowd will be going bigger cube or aftermarket real quick to stay as the core base of the mustang contingent >>

You will see the cubic benefit when i post up the data we get from the latest vortech monster in the works.... just got the ups # and invoice for the twin V24 Ztrims going to the geardrive manufacturer for a 648ci 10.5W project I get the honor of doing with vortech, psi, and my boy vinny. 3000+hp mmmm


PS you think i still dnt have a lil 8.2 based sumtin sumtin going in the zephyr nothing but love for the sbf's- what else i going to do with this little Xtrim I never got rid of with SBF brackets... nigha pleeze >>>

z? what happened to the 123?

[PaxtonPwr]

cant fit 2 of em on the gear drive unit volutes and transmissions are too large and cannot be clocked in any configuration to work... and they might have been a little too large to run in duals anyway for the cubes - thats why theyve had some guys goin to a twin f1r or f2 design instead of using 2 f3's. They already had a single V28 123 over 200mph on an outlaw 10.5W car with 509 cubes its turning out to be one baaaad bitch!>>

[modo]

Originally Posted by PaxtonPwr

cant fit 2 of em on the gear drive unit volutes and transmissions are too large and cannot be clocked in any configuration to work... and they might have been a little too large to run in duals anyway for the cubes - thats why theyve had some guys goin to a twin f1r or f2 design instead of using 2 f3's. They already had a single V28 123 over 200mph on an outlaw 10.5W car with 509 cubes its turning out to be one baaaad bitch!>>

that blower is no joke... not suprsied since its the big V making it and im glad to see them going after the race crowd now.

so i changed the coil in the coupe and its got 12v now. now its acting like its lean

stupid carbs are gay, im about to put FI and a aem / fast on this bitch

[DSTURBD]

Originally Posted by modo

that blower is no joke... not suprsied since its the big V making it and im glad to see them going after the race crowd now.

so i changed the coil in the coupe and its got 12v now. now its acting like its lean

stupid carbs are gay, im about to put FI and a aem / fast on this bitch

Just out of curiosity, but have you guys looked into MegaSquirt?? (we may have had this convo before...)

[modo]

Originally Posted by DSTURBD

Just out of curiosity, but have you guys looked into MegaSquirt?? (we may have had this convo before...)

yeah. its cool but not for me. i like having a warranty, 1.800 number to call, and more local support

[DSTURBD]

Originally Posted by modo

yeah. its cool but not for me. i like having a warranty, 1.800 number to call, and more local support

Gotcha... I'm not sure about the MS warranty, but I have plenty of local support and I can reach the company when needed... I was just curious if there were guys up there using it as there are down here...

[PaxtonPwr]

I use a megasquirt based setup on my mustang (test unit serial number 0000 from spectre EMS lol) and have used it on a few other vehicles N/A, blower, and twin turbo. Its a fine setup but the fast XFI is the **** and the new EZ XFI is what i would put on your dads dennis- thats what we put on nicks dads old vette and it rules, installed whole thing in a day they give ya everything down to the zip ties and its self learning after entering some initial engine and combo data. with the air cleaner on cant even tell really good na to 600hp i believe not really made for power adders though doesnt use laptop like XFI etc...





and as for the twin gear drives.... all done....had to stagger a lil front to back they are about an inch larger diameter than an F2 each but superchargerstore did an awesome job

[modo]

thats sick

[DSTURBD]

Originally Posted by modo

thats sick

No doubt!!

[95 Bullitt]

Originally Posted by PaxtonPwr

I use a megasquirt based setup on my mustang (test unit serial number 0000 from spectre EMS lol) and have used it on a few other vehicles N/A, blower, and twin turbo. Its a fine setup but the fast XFI is the **** and the new EZ XFI is what i would put on your dads dennis- thats what we put on nicks dads old vette and it rules, installed whole thing in a day they give ya everything down to the zip ties and its self learning after entering some initial engine and combo data. with the air cleaner on cant even tell really good na to 600hp i believe not really made for power adders though doesnt use laptop like XFI etc...





and as for the twin gear drives.... all done....had to stagger a lil front to back they are about an inch larger diameter than an F2 each but superchargerstore did an awesome job

Never seen anything like that before Kris...that is insane

[JDGt281]

Originally Posted by PaxtonPwr

Fap fap fap fap fap. That is sick man, can't wait to see the final product

[PaxtonPwr]

well youll be happy its going in a notch.... but it might be considered chevyish powered lol

[modo]

Originally Posted by PaxtonPwr

well youll be happy its going in a notch.... but it might be considered chevyish powered lol

how are you doing the radiator? same as vinny's turd?

[PaxtonPwr]

not most likely either put a singel to the side or lay it flat, im going up this sat i think to check out the chassis since it just got back from montana brothers, it has a mockup mtr in it and the unit should be in jersey 2moro hopefully, once its bolted on its gonna be up to frank to figure out how he wants to weld a rad. together or i get a custom griffin or 2 like i did for vinny. lol