I'm tired of hearing about Christianity

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by wire

You might have no idea, but people out there definitely do:

http://www.wired.com/wiredscience/20...bonucleotides/


We're also very close to surpassing the human mind when it comes to computing technology. AI's a bit further off, but that's a linguistic issue more than anything.

"RNA is now found in living cells, where it carries information between genes and protein-manufacturing cellular components. Scientists think RNA existed early in Earth’s history, providing a necessary intermediate platform between pre-biotic chemicals and DNA, its double-stranded, more-stable descendant."

Now, can you create what makes up RNA or causes it to be able to self duplicate? No.

They pin-pointed another step earlier than what they knew, but can they create it?

No, as the article says clearly, they are still looking and merely discovering more and more about science. They are still just playing with flasks and test tubes in a scientific world that God created.

None of those scientists can walk into a room with nothing, and create a life.

However, man claims that 1. God didn't. and 2. A big random bang in space did.

[wire]

Originally Posted by Wreck

"RNA is now found in living cells, where it carries information between genes and protein-manufacturing cellular components. Scientists think RNA existed early in Earth’s history, providing a necessary intermediate platform between pre-biotic chemicals and DNA, its double-stranded, more-stable descendant."

Now, can you create what makes up RNA or causes it to be able to self duplicate? No.

They pin-pointed another step earlier than what they knew, but can they create it?

No, as the article says clearly, they are still looking and merely discovering more and more about science. They are still just playing with flasks and test tubes in a scientific world that God created.
None of those scientists can walk into a room with nothing, and create a life.

However, man claims that 1. God didn't. and 2. A big random bang in space did.

Uh....I have to believe you didn't actually read that article.

I don't understand how you can see that we've come so close (and in such a short time compared to what we knew 100 years ago) and still claim that it's going to be impossible for us to figure out the last few, tiny details we have left to work out. Looking at what we keep learning through history, it seems pretty clear that we're going to figure this out. Probably in each of our lifetimes.

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by wire

We're also very close to surpassing the human mind when it comes to computing technology. AI's a bit further off, but that's a linguistic issue more than anything.

And we are nowhere near close to surpassing what the human mind can do when it comes to technology. We're good at mimicking it with the graphic standards of today that consist of video cards, processors, memory sticks that all compiled are bigger than your brain and can only operate based on code and barely last more than half a decade before you have to replace every part inside. We fake graphics with bump maps, specular maps, normal maps, baked lighting. We work to create special effects in movies that take up to 8 hours a frame to render.

Imagine if you could load the REAL world into a computer. The multi-billions upon billions of details\textures\polys that would require the computer to view it in a computer standard. You couldn't even load up my backyard in detail without our best computer grinding to a halt. I can walk out back and look at 500,000 leaves on the trees, blow on them, burn them, kick a billion grains of sand up and view them all, feel ever one of them touching my skin and have millions of nerve endings report the feelings to my brain. My brain equips me with 100 frames a second, with no lag\loss, with the ability to think, create, design, edit, modify the world around me, and to have emotions about what I do as I do it.

A computer can merely show you a fake 4,000 poly landscape with a textured map with baked lighting with a fake sky above it, some gizmo particle system clouds, some 8,000 poly character models that are AI'd to say only about 20 different random things to you based on your actions.

Computers are just silly calculators at this point compared to what we are.

A computer can crunch numbers faster, but has no free-will, conscious, emotion, short term and long term memory, dreams or rem sleep, and in no way anywhere near close to being able to perform like the human mind does.

AI can fake it's way only so far.

Computers can't replicate themselves, and have no self awareness (skynet aaaah!)

If you just hold your hand up in front of your face and move it around, and spend an honest minute looking at it and how the heck it functions, and you STILL think that's just because of a boom in space and an accident, I really don't know what to think of your own foolishness.

Imagine if the sun were just a few thousand miles closer to earth? The entire planet would be like Death Valley. If it were a few thousand miles further away, the planet would be like the Artic. There was a specific plan that put us here. The biggest joke is that we're dancing around claiming it was all an accident.

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by wire

Uh....I have to believe you didn't actually read that article.

I don't understand how you can see that we've come so close (and in such a short time compared to what we knew 100 years ago) and still claim that it's going to be impossible for us to figure out the last few, tiny details we have left to work out. Looking at what we keep learning through history, it seems pretty clear that we're going to figure this out. Probably in each of our lifetimes.

Figuring it out by duplicating what is here? I agree with you. And yes I read the article.

My point is, who created the original pieces that we are figuring this out from?

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by Wreck

You claimed it fell apart. We don't understand how nothing can not having a beginning, since everything we know has a start and an end. To us it is only logical that God must have been created too since we can't grasp the concept in our minds of 'no start' and 'no ending'.

Just because you don't understand how God may not have had a beginning or had been created, doesn't mean it didn't happen.

But by the same logic, just because you don't understand how the big bang could have come from nothing, doesn't mean it didn't happen. The difference here is that religion says "I don't know. So.... God." Science says "I don't know. So.... Let's find out."

Originally Posted by Wreck

You have no idea how life is created. But it's there. We can take sperm, eggs, pollinate them and grow a test tube life, but we have no idea how to create the actual spark of life and create our own creations. If someone dies of a clogged airway, and you clear that airway, all we know how to do is to jolt electricity through them. If that doesn't work, we're clueless. We have no idea how to generate life from nothing.

We have created DNA from primordial ooze and electricity before. That's really the most important part for life. Since everything starts out as a single cell, and then grows (or stays a single cell), the DNA is what tells everything how to grow. Even nature can't turn a mass of cells into a living organism, it needs to build it up, piece by piece.

Originally Posted by Wreck

Someone does, and it wasn't some random explosion in space that miraculously designed you. Your brain, your creativity, your every function down to your lungs, heart, veins, muscles, joints, digestive system... As smart as you want to claim man-kind is and how we know how it all works and where we came from, we can't even develop a computer that can generate and process at the same speeds as our own minds. We're so advanced with our phones and pads and zooming around in our cars at 100mph but we have no idea how our mind actually functions. The storage of the brain, the memory, the emotions, the free will, the endless possibilities.

There is so much wrong with our design. Yeah, the eyeball, and the heart, and my colon are impressive. But why does the vagus nerve go from my brain, down my spine, around my heart, and back up my neck to my vocal cords? That's not a very intelligent design. Why do we eat and breathe through the same hole? That's not very intelligent. And besides, we CAN make computers as powerful as the brain, just not the human brain. We have made computers that have the intelligence of fruit flies. It's only a matter of time before that scales up. We have mapped the neural connections in our brain, we understand how it's all connected.

Originally Posted by Wreck

We can't re-create or explain how it came to be. I believe God is the greatest scientist of all. He designed us and designed the science that we study. We just choose to take God's science, remove him from existance, and broadcast instead that the science was our creator. By accident.

I'd rather have faith that God is there and he made me then erase the hope of faith in a creator and just accept that an explosion took place and I was developed completely by accident from the dark hole of science over 14 million years.

I choose purpose over accident. Do I believe in God? Yes. Would I die for that belief? Yes. Can I prove it to you? No. Is it a faith based on what I see? Yes.

Your logic is the epitome of a God of the gaps. "Religion is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance". Thousands of years ago, we knew NOTHING of the world. And God was the answer to all of it. Now we know what the stars are, we know why the sun rises and sets, we know what a sperm and egg are, we know how old the earth is and how it was created. And as science comes out with new answers, religion is forced to say "well it's just a metaphor" over and over and over again. Eventually, there will be nothing left for religion to answer because science wants the answers, and religion avoids them.

"I challenge anyone here to think of a question upon which we once had a scientific answer, however inadequate, but for which now the best answer is a religious one."
-Sam Harris

I am willing to accept that there is a God. But I am not willing to accept it simply because "we don't know". That's infantile logic.

One last thing: I think that it's beautiful that we are chance. The atoms that make you; iron, carbon, oxygen, were born inside of stars and spread throughout the universe upon their death. We are made of stars. We are the universe coming to know itself. We are a small oasis of wonder in the universe, and that makes us special. I would rather be the universe becoming concious than be an ego boost for a creator.

[TeXasTrash]

Originally Posted by Wreck

My point is, who created the original pieces that we are figuring this out from?

My imaginary friend did it, he told me so. He would tell you but he doesn't want to, so just believe what I say and worship him. Oh, and give me money and let me molest your kids...

[Wolvatron]

Originally Posted by Wreck

Imagine if the sun were just a few thousand miles closer to earth? The entire planet would be like Death Valley. If it were a few thousand miles further away, the planet would be like the Artic. There was a specific plan that put us here. The biggest joke is that we're dancing around claiming it was all an accident.

Pro-tip - Earth's orbit around the sun is elliptic and varies in distance by about 3 million miles.

[Lution]

Originally Posted by Ducky

One last thing: I think that it's beautiful that we are chance. The atoms that make you; iron, carbon, oxygen, were born inside of stars and spread throughout the universe upon their death. We are made of stars. We are the universe coming to know itself. We are a small oasis of wonder in the universe, and that makes us special. I would rather be the universe becoming conscious than be an ego boost for a creator.

perfectly said, my friend.

[TungstenGT]

I think just because science can mimick something like RNA, doesn't mean it definitely happened as an accident. I believe that what occurred to put us here was guided by a higher entity, (in my case, God.). I don't have the absolute answers as to what happened. I only know what I believe to be the truth.
I disagree with the earlier stipulation that God creating everything means something had to create God. It is my belief that God has always existed.

[wire]

Originally Posted by Wreck

And we are nowhere near close to surpassing what the human mind can do when it comes to technology. We're good at mimicking it with the graphic standards of today that consist of video cards, processors, memory sticks that all compiled are bigger than your brain and can only operate based on code and barely last more than half a decade before you have to replace every part inside. We fake graphics with bump maps, specular maps, normal maps, baked lighting. We work to create special effects in movies that take up to 8 hours a frame to render.

A computer can crunch numbers faster, but has no free-will, conscious, emotion, short term and long term memory, dreams or rem sleep, and in no way anywhere near close to being able to perform like the human mind does.

AI can fake it's way only so far.

Computers can't replicate themselves, and have no self awareness (skynet aaaah!)

If you just hold your hand up in front of your face and move it around, and spend an honest minute looking at it and how the heck it functions, and you STILL think that's just because of a boom in space and an accident, I really don't know what to think of your own foolishness.

Imagine if the sun were just a few thousand miles closer to earth? The entire planet would be like Death Valley. If it were a few thousand miles further away, the planet would be like the Artic. There was a specific plan that put us here. The biggest joke is that we're dancing around claiming it was all an accident.

Let's start from the beginning.

First your claim was this:
As smart as you want to claim man-kind is and how we know how it all works and where we came from, we can't even develop a computer that can generate and process at the same speeds as our own minds

Since you just conceded that point in your above statement (YES we absolutely CAN develop computers that generate and process AT THE SAME SPEEDS as our minds - faster even!)

Now to address all these brand new red herrings.

There's endless arguments against free-will with an omniscient God. Unless you're better than all the philosophers for the past few millenia, I doubt you're going to be able to figure out a solid argument in support of free-will under such circumstances. Plenty of people disagree. Meaning you can't claim that we're better than computers because we have free will considering you can't even prove we have free-will to begin with. You can only desperately hope that your God didn't plan for you to enter an argument about free-will that you'd inevitably lose

As far as conciousness goes, you should really look into Putnam's Computational Theory of Mind. Tons of people believe that a machine will be able to develop conciousness. Even more people believe that conciousness is inherently so lackadasically defined that it's difficult (read: impossible) to assert something doesn't have conciousness.

Yes, I can't spell conciousness.

Emotion - sure, I'll start off with agreeing that computers don't have emotion. So what? I don't see emotion as being particularly beneficial - convince me it is and isn't just a pile of crap that leads to irrationality and chaos.

No, a computer doesn't have short term or long term memory. Instead it has always and forever memory - far surpassing mankind's pathetic "where did I put my keys?" memory. So considering a computer's memory is clearly more useful and accurate -- what's your point here?

And who cares if they don't dream or enter REM state? I'm wasting about 1/3 of my life because some stupid God decided to make it so that I have to spend all this time "sleeping" and somehow that's supposed to be a good thing?

[wire]

And since you seem to have such a hardon for intelligent design, you might wanna check out just how retarded our intelligent designer would have to be to make as many mistakes as he did

[Lution]

Originally Posted by Wolvatron

Pro-tip - Earth's orbit around the sun is elliptic and varies in distance by about 3 million miles.

WTF-tip - The Moon's orbit around the Earth is almost perfectly circular. Regardless of whether the Moon was captured into orbit by the Earth's gravity or was initially a part of the Earth, a near perfect circular orbit is not scientifically possible.

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by TungstenGT

I think just because science can mimick something like RNA, doesn't mean it definitely happened as an accident. I believe that what occurred to put us here was guided by a higher entity, (in my case, God.). I don't have the absolute answers as to what happened. I only know what I believe to be the truth.
I disagree with the earlier stipulation that God creating everything means something had to create God. It is my belief that God has always existed.

"Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down. down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it."

[Roffy]

Originally Posted by Wreck

And we are nowhere near close to surpassing what the human mind can do when it comes to technology. We're good at mimicking it with the graphic standards of today that consist of video cards, processors, memory sticks that all compiled are bigger than your brain and can only operate based on code and barely last more than half a decade before you have to replace every part inside. We fake graphics with bump maps, specular maps, normal maps, baked lighting. We work to create special effects in movies that take up to 8 hours a frame to render.

A computer can crunch numbers faster, but has no free-will, conscious, emotion, short term and long term memory, dreams or rem sleep, and in no way anywhere near close to being able to perform like the human mind does.

AI can fake it's way only so far.

Computers can't replicate themselves, and have no self awareness (skynet aaaah!)

If you just hold your hand up in front of your face and move it around, and spend an honest minute looking at it and how the heck it functions, and you STILL think that's just because of a boom in space and an accident, I really don't know what to think of your own foolishness.

Imagine if the sun were just a few thousand miles closer to earth? The entire planet would be like Death Valley. If it were a few thousand miles further away, the planet would be like the Artic. There was a specific plan that put us here. The biggest joke is that we're dancing around claiming it was all an accident.

I love how religious folks/creationists always understate the way the world came to be. "A boom in space" oversimplifies it to the point that I have to consider how seriously you take yourself. And, how about the fact that, if you believe in a god, do you think he made a chain reaction of things happen? Or do you believe sh!t just appeared.

At least the most intelligent Christians will find some common middle ground between science and religion. But really, I find it odd that some people such as yourself find it to be more believable that an all-powerful being could just swing his wand or wiggle his nose and everything just came to be, rather than there being a complex chain reaction and slow progression over a long period of time.

Apparently, someone just flipped the "on" switch one day and that's the end of the story.

I also particularly enjoy that some people can't accept that things in space were always there, yet we are supposed to believe that god always existed...didn't someone have to create him? Or...wait...was he just always there? If he was always there, why couldn't everything else have just always been there? And is it our mortality that causes such a difficulty with grasping the concept that there may not have been a single moment of creation?

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by Lution

WTF-tip - The Moon's orbit around the Earth is almost perfectly circular. Regardless of whether the Moon was captured into orbit by the Earth's gravity or was initially a part of the Earth, a near perfect circular orbit is not scientifically possible.

Anything is scientifically possible, maybe not probable. And the moon is moving away from us anyways, so it's not perfect.

[Lution]

Originally Posted by TungstenGT

I disagree with the earlier stipulation that God creating everything means something had to create God. It is my belief that God has always existed.

How do you feel that can be? serious question. Hopefully your answer isn't going to be "I don't know, therefore God."

[Wolvatron]

Originally Posted by Lution

WTF-tip - The Moon's orbit around the Earth is almost perfectly circular. Regardless of whether the Moon was captured into orbit by the Earth's gravity or was initially a part of the Earth, a near perfect circular orbit is not scientifically possible.

Off the top of my head, doesn't the moon also wobble by about 20,000 miles? I mean, on a scale of 93 million miles, that's not much. But the moon is like 240,000 miles away from Earth or so.

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by Ducky

But by the same logic, just because you don't understand how the big bang could have come from nothing, doesn't mean it didn't happen. The difference here is that religion says "I don't know. So.... God." Science says "I don't know. So.... Let's find out."

One is based on faith on what we see around us. I don't believe Science is wrong. I am a huge fan of science and I think what these scientists are doing is amazing and the fact that they duplicate dna is an act of them understanding the science that God created.

Originally Posted by Ducky

We have created DNA from primordial ooze and electricity before. That's really the most important part for life. Since everything starts out as a single cell, and then grows (or stays a single cell), the DNA is what tells everything how to grow. Even nature can't turn a mass of cells into a living organism, it needs to build it up, piece by piece.

I agree with this. But where did the primordial ooze and electricity come from that we used to create the DNA? Someone created this playground we're in, and we're merely LEARNING an insanely large amount about it, understanding it more and more each day, but at no point will we ever be able to just create something out of nothing (which we claim the big bang did because it's the only answer to latch on to if you don't want to believe in God"

Originally Posted by Ducky

There is so much wrong with our design. Yeah, the eyeball, and the heart, and my colon are impressive. But why does the vagus nerve go from my brain, down my spine, around my heart, and back up my neck to my vocal cords? That's not a very intelligent design. Why do we eat and breathe through the same hole? That's not very intelligent. And besides, we CAN make computers as powerful as the brain, just not the human brain. We have made computers that have the intelligence of fruit flies. It's only a matter of time before that scales up. We have mapped the neural connections in our brain, we understand how it's all connected.

I don't know much about the vagus nerve and I won't pretend to google it to appear smart You can breathe out of your mouth, but we actually have two locations to breathe from (mouth \ nose). You can chew and keep your mouth closed and still breathe. That's a good design. Inhaling your food isn't smart though. Who knows. Having those 2 tubes that close together could possibly use an upgrade. lol

Originally Posted by Ducky

Your logic is the epitome of a God of the gaps. "Religion is an ever receding pocket of scientific ignorance". Thousands of years ago, we knew NOTHING of the world. And God was the answer to all of it. Now we know what the stars are, we know why the sun rises and sets, we know what a sperm and egg are, we know how old the earth is and how it was created. And as science comes out with new answers, religion is forced to say "well it's just a metaphor" over and over and over again. Eventually, there will be nothing left for religion to answer because science wants the answers, and religion avoids them.

You're just defining that we have learned more about what is around us. Even with all our technology and knowledge, the earth hasn't actually changed any. We're just educating ourselves of it.

There is nothing wrong with science, in fact, I feel that science is even better explained when I look at if from a Godly viewpoint.

Originally Posted by Ducky

One last thing: I think that it's beautiful that we are chance. The atoms that make you; iron, carbon, oxygen, were born inside of stars and spread throughout the universe upon their death. We are made of stars. We are the universe coming to know itself. We are a small oasis of wonder in the universe, and that makes us special. I would rather be the universe becoming concious than be an ego boost for a creator.

I would rather think the stars are made up of the same things we're made up of, and both made by the same creator.

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by Roffy

I love how religious folks/creationists always understate the way the world came to be. "A boom in space" oversimplifies it to the point that I have to consider how seriously you take yourself. And, how about the fact that, if you believe in a god, do you think he made a chain reaction of things happen? Or do you believe sh!t just appeared.

At least the most intelligent Christians will find some common middle ground between science and religion. But really, I find it odd that some people such as yourself find it to be more believable that an all-powerful being could just swing his wand or wiggle his nose and everything just came to be, rather than there being a complex chain reaction and slow progression over a long period of time.

Apparently, someone just flipped the "on" switch one day and that's the end of the story.

I also particularly enjoy that some people can't accept that things in space were always there, yet we are supposed to believe that god always existed...didn't someone have to create him? Or...wait...was he just always there? If he was always there, why couldn't everything else have just always been there? And is it our mortality that causes such a difficulty with grasping the concept that there may not have been a single moment of creation?

Don't insult him for oversimplifying, then oversimplify his beliefs.

[TungstenGT]

Originally Posted by Ducky

"Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down. down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it."

I think you may misunderstand me, or I do a very poor job of saying what I believe. I am not against science, and believe very strongly in what it can accomplish and explain. I just also firmly believe in God. I don't presume to know what God wants or has done. It is just a part of my faith that there is a God.

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by Roffy

I love how religious folks/creationists always understate the way the world came to be. "A boom in space" oversimplifies it to the point that I have to consider how seriously you take yourself. And, how about the fact that, if you believe in a god, do you think he made a chain reaction of things happen? Or do you believe sh!t just appeared.

At least the most intelligent Christians will find some common middle ground between science and religion. But really, I find it odd that some people such as yourself find it to be more believable that an all-powerful being could just swing his wand or wiggle his nose and everything just came to be, rather than there being a complex chain reaction and slow progression over a long period of time.

Apparently, someone just flipped the "on" switch one day and that's the end of the story.

I also particularly enjoy that some people can't accept that things in space were always there, yet we are supposed to believe that god always existed...didn't someone have to create him? Or...wait...was he just always there? If he was always there, why couldn't everything else have just always been there? And is it our mortality that causes such a difficulty with grasping the concept that there may not have been a single moment of creation?

I would totally be open to the fact that God created the world over a 7,000 year period of time and he used a big bang scientific method to do it.

I am not open to removing God from having anything to do with it. That is the difference between you and me. If there is scientific proof of a big-bang, then I would chalk to that is the method God used to create us.

I call it a "boom in space" because I wanted to. Don't get too offended over it. I don't get offended when you say "oooh someone flipped the on-switch"

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by Wolvatron

Pro-tip - Earth's orbit around the sun is elliptic and varies in distance by about 3 million miles.

ya know what I meant. I didn't go googling the distances to be realistically accurate.

[wire]

In an infinite universe not only is it possible, but it would be impossible for us to not exist. And plenty of smartypants are starting to think that not only may our universe be infinite, but there may be an infinite number of universes as well.

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by Roffy

I also particularly enjoy that some people can't accept that things in space were always there, yet we are supposed to believe that god always existed...didn't someone have to create him? Or...wait...was he just always there? If he was always there, why couldn't everything else have just always been there? And is it our mortality that causes such a difficulty with grasping the concept that there may not have been a single moment of creation?

I also believe in a practical way that we aren't the first creation by God. Do I believe Dinosaurs were here long before us? yes. Do I believe it could have been before the "adam and eve" of the bible? Yes. There are time gaps in Genesis and other verses in the bible that hit that before the creation we read of in Genesis that there were great cities, a lot of really interesting things.

This planet could very well be 10 million years old. I don't doubt all that scientific carbon dating stuff. I do believe that the majority of our Bible that God gave us only relates to what we needed to know on a spiritual level.

It all boils down to faith, but at least people on here can debate maturely about it.

[Lution]

Originally Posted by Ducky

Anything is scientifically possible, maybe not probable. And the moon is moving away from us anyways, so it's not perfect.

Out of 167 (more or less) moons in the solar system (Pluto has a moon - yeah, fvck it, it's a planet to me!), Our Earth's Moon is the only one with anything close to a near perfect circular orbit. That gives me pause to say wtf? how does that happen? It just happened that way? not probable. then how?

just a strange funny fact about the moon.

[TungstenGT]

Originally Posted by Lution

How do you feel that can be? serious question. Hopefully your answer isn't going to be "I don't know, therefore God."

I don't know.
I know that feeds into what you were expecting. I just beleive that God has always existed. I can't explain it anymore than I could explain the counter argument that something had to create God.

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by Ducky

"Truth does not demand belief. Scientists do not join hands every Sunday, singing, yes, gravity is real! I will have faith! I will be strong! I believe in my heart that what goes up, up, up must come down, down. down. Amen! If they did, we would think they were pretty insecure about it."

I wouldn't expect them to do that. Science is not a faith. It's a fact. I believe God created science. that is a faith. One is something I worship, one is something I study and can learn more about.

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by Wreck

One is based on faith on what we see around us. I don't believe Science is wrong. I am a huge fan of science and I think what these scientists are doing is amazing and the fact that they duplicate dna is an act of them understanding the science that God created.

Why have faith on what you see around you? Why choose to believe something without evidence? We have scientists actively recreating the beginning of time, but you would rather pick the answer with no evidence.

Originally Posted by Wreck

I agree with this. But where did the primordial ooze and electricity come from that we used to create the DNA? Someone created this playground we're in, and we're merely LEARNING an insanely large amount about it, understanding it more and more each day, but at no point will we ever be able to just create something out of nothing (which we claim the big bang did because it's the only answer to latch on to if you don't want to believe in God"

The primordial ooze came from stars, and electricity comes from physics. How much do you know about the big bang theory? Current super string theory says that if you go small enough, EVERYTHING, all matter, everything everywhere that exists and has ever existed, is just vibrating strings of energy. And the big bang was all of the energy contained in a small space. It existed already. It exploded and released pure energy. As the energy cooled, it coalesced into sub-atomic particles. Into matter. These processes are observable in particle accelerators, and supported by math. This isn't scientists throwing science at the wall to see what sticks.

Originally Posted by Wreck

I don't know much about the vagus nerve and I won't pretend to google it to appear smart You can breathe out of your mouth, but we actually have two locations to breathe from (mouth \ nose). You can chew and keep your mouth closed and still breathe. That's a good design. Inhaling your food isn't smart though. Who knows. Having those 2 tubes that close together could possibly use an upgrade. lol

The reason the vagus nerve does what it does is because of evolution. All vertibrates share the same trait of the nerve going around the heart. Even giraffes. The reason is because of fish. The nerve USED to go in a straight line from the brain, past the heart, to the throat. But as animals evolved necks, and hearts shifted, the nerve followed. Evolution doesn't have the ability to make large singular changes, something an intelligent creator could do.

Originally Posted by Wreck

You're just defining that we have learned more about what is around us. Even with all our technology and knowledge, the earth hasn't actually changed any. We're just educating ourselves of it.

There is nothing wrong with science, in fact, I feel that science is even better explained when I look at if from a Godly viewpoint.

EXACTLY. Science has taught us what is around us. Not religion. Religion has taught us nothing. Ever. Sure, it has answers, but science continuously contradicts religion with irrefutable evidence.

Originally Posted by Wreck

I would rather think the stars are made up of the same things we're made up of, and both made by the same creator.

Yes, we're made of the same stuff, but it's because the stars made everything. The early universe contained only hydrogen and helium. Stars use nuclear fusion to turn two hydrogens into a helium. Two heliums into a beryllium. Two beryllium's into an oxygen. And again, we know this because we can do it. There is an entire section of the periodic table full of man-made elements. Where we fused atoms together to make things that nature, or your God, couldn't.


You ignored Sam Harris' challenge. Also, what do you think of Epicurious' riddle? "Is God willing to prevent evil, but not able? Then he is not omnipotent. Is he able, but not willing? Then he is malevolent. Is he both able and willing? Then whence cometh evil? Is he neither able nor willing? Then why call him God?"

[Roffy]

Originally Posted by Ducky

Don't insult him for oversimplifying, then oversimplify his beliefs.

I wasn't, his statements were already simplified. That was my point.

but at no point will we ever be able to just create something out of nothing (which we claim the big bang did because it's the only answer to latch on to if you don't want to believe in God"

Wrong. Think of it like the development of a human. The sperm fertilizing the egg are the conditions for the development of a fetus. A baby is born, the baby grows up and eventually becomes an intelligent human being. That sperm didn't start out as something very special...it could have just as likely ended up in a tube sock and died. But, the man and women were able to create the right conditions to create and sustain life that ended up being much more complex than what it started out as. I see this is an accelerated version of evolution. When life began on this planet it started out as a "sperm", so to speak and then developed over time. That is because the conditions slowly changed to a point where development could be sustained and where evolution came to be.

I am not open to removing God from having anything to do with it. That is the difference between you and me. If there is scientific proof of a big-bang, then I would chalk to that is the method God used to create us.

So, why are you so hung up on the idea that, even if that's how it happened that there must have been some impossibly powerful being that did it? It boggles my mind how much people yearn for the idea that there must be some "reason" for why we exist than merely accepting the fact that we exist. I feel that three of the most common reasons people turn to religion is that they want to feel like there is some point to life, or they want to be comforted in the fact that there is more after life because they fear death, or that their life is just simply not that good and they use religion to feel better.

And, if there is a god, how are there not many gods? The fact that there would be only one god seems even more illogical than the random chance that a chain reaction created the right conditions to sustain life.

[94GTStang]

Science and religion can not coexist. Man made science to better understand the world we live in as well as to help us prosper. Religion is the remnant of the untrained and uneducated mind that was used to try and explain our world. As time has gone on and man has made discoveries, the god of the gaps has shrunken. Science is the work of unhindered minds and religion tries its hardest to maintain its foothold in a world that does not need it. Religion will stop at nothing to hold back the imaginative mind. Filling young children's minds with garbage and teaching children to not question what they have been told is the biggest threat imaginable. No matter how innocent people think religion is to the scientific world, it is nothing but a wolf in sheeps clothing. There is good reason why the middle ages existed and no human advancement was made. It wasn't until the enlightenment that people began thinking outside the church walls and out of the dark ages.

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by Ducky

EXACTLY. Science has taught us what is around us. Not religion. Religion has taught us nothing. Ever. Sure, it has answers, but science continuously contradicts religion with irrefutable evidence.

I don't see how they both don't co-exist. We are science. We are created on a scientific platform. God didn't just design us without the knowledge of a proper architecture. We are now learning all about ourselves, about the planet, the stars, etc.

I don't see where science contradicts religion though. The Bible says "God created" Science says "A big bang took place and these are the 1,000 facts that support it."

So why can't I say "God created the earth using the big bang that science has proved and backs up"?

Why do I have to remove God from the creation all together? I believe God is a scientific God. The bible says he created the earth, but it doesn't say how. So why can't the "how" be the scientific way men have discovered?

[Wreck]

Originally Posted by Roffy

I wasn't, his statements were already simplified. That was my point.



Wrong. Think of it like the development of a human. The sperm fertilizing the egg are the conditions for the development of a fetus. A baby is born, the baby grows up and eventually becomes an intelligent human being. That sperm didn't start out as something very special...it could have just as likely ended up in a tube sock and died. But, the man and women were able to create the right conditions to create and sustain life that ended up being much more complex than what it started out as. I see this is an accelerated version of evolution. When life began on this planet it started out as a "sperm", so to speak and then developed over time. That is because the conditions slowly changed to a point where development could be sustained and where evolution came to be.



So, why are you so hung up on the idea that, even if that's how it happened that there must have been some impossibly powerful being that did it? It boggles my mind how much people yearn for the idea that there must be some "reason" for why we exist than merely accepting the fact that we exist. I feel that three of the most common reasons people turn to religion is that they want to feel like there is some point to life, or they want to be comforted in the fact that there is more after life because they fear death, or that their life is just simply not that good and they use religion to feel better.

And, if there is a god, how are there not many gods? The fact that there would be only one god seems even more illogical than the random chance that a chain reaction created the right conditions to sustain life.

Why are you so hung up on the idea that there is no God, and that we're here by accident?

[wire]

Originally Posted by Wreck

Why are you so hung up on the idea that there is no God, and that we're here by accident?

That's the default POV tho -- Occam's razor, that's totally the simplest explanation. And there's no credible reason to believe otherwise?

[Roffy]

Originally Posted by Wreck

Why are you so hung up on the idea that there is no God, and that we're here by accident?

Out of my entire post that's the only thing that caught your eye?
On top of that you missed the point. Why, on a personal level, does it make more sense to believe that someone caused it happen rather than it just having happened on it's own? Since you are, seemingly, willing to say that science and religion can find some middle ground on HOW it happened.

Instead of deflecting and turning my question around, try answering my questions. I don't believe in god because I think all-powerful beings are fairy tales, and if there was one there would be many. The idea of a god makes no logical sense. I believe that chance won when the dice were rolled and that the conditions just happened to work in our favor over time.

[94GTStang]

Originally Posted by Wreck

I don't see how they both don't co-exist. We are science. We are created on a scientific platform. God didn't just design us without the knowledge of a proper architecture. We are now learning all about ourselves, about the planet, the stars, etc.

I don't see where science contradicts religion though. The Bible says "God created" Science says "A big bang took place and these are the 1,000 facts that support it."

So why can't I say "God created the earth using the big bang that science has proved and backs up"?

Why do I have to remove God from the creation all together? I believe God is a scientific God. The bible says he created the earth, but it doesn't say how. So why can't the "how" be the scientific way men have discovered?

That's my problem with the religious. They want their individual god to take credit for everything. No matter what we discover or learn about ourselves/universe, they always interject and say "god did it yay"! Always upping the ante one step. After a while it gets old and mundane. Take your thousands of years old books out of my modern age science and leave us to make the discoveries. Quit always trumping anything you can.

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by Wreck

I don't see how they both don't co-exist. We are science. We are created on a scientific platform. God didn't just design us without the knowledge of a proper architecture. We are now learning all about ourselves, about the planet, the stars, etc.

I don't see where science contradicts religion though. The Bible says "God created" Science says "A big bang took place and these are the 1,000 facts that support it."

So why can't I say "God created the earth using the big bang that science has proved and backs up"?

Why do I have to remove God from the creation all together? I believe God is a scientific God. The bible says he created the earth, but it doesn't say how. So why can't the "how" be the scientific way men have discovered?

Well now you're moving away from the Judeo-Christian God and going to a generic creator. A creator that I already stated I am will to accept exists if there is proof. The Bible contains a lot of answers and stories that are contradicted now by science. Like the fact that the earth is stationary and flat. Or what of the Tower of Babel? Destroyed to keep humans from reaching heaven. Yet we can go to the moon unimpeded.

But to more directly answer your question, I already explained my opinion on why science and religion cannot coexist. Religion claims to have all of the answers. That's EXACTLY what the Bible is, answers and directions. Science wants to find the answers, through repeatable and proven processes. And every day, science takes another answer from religion.

[Cobra S]

Originally Posted by Richard F. Togo

I figured out why you wear pantyhose on your head bro..

[IMG]http://www.lolzilla.net/images/62987271882878055535.jpg[/IMG

Originally Posted by Duke R. Togo

Hey asspie even if you're right, the african booty scratchers were poor before they were religious. Haitians were poor before they were religious. Poor south americans were poor before they were religious. Being religious doesn't make or keep them poor. If religion gives them comfort then that is their choice - rational or no. The point is, it has not created their misery.

Militant atheists, living in developed countries like the USA and Canada have often had every opportunity and squandered it. They weren't born into being losers. Big difference.

c'mon now, butt-hurt brothers in fart. poor people in developed countries, especially in north america, stay poor because of religion. it takes away their motivation to do better, which makes sense- when you put all your faith into an imaginary power in the sky.

butt hurt togo, religion doesn't cause misery, at all?

what "militant atheists" started wars, bombed abortion clinics, forced their beliefs onto others with weapons and torture?

[berlinetta]

Originally Posted by Ducky

no, that is not the reasoning. Christianity is inherently anti-intellectual. It tells you not to search for answers, because the answer is God. This is why there are still Christians actively searching to disprove evolution, even though it's readily apparent if you just fvcking look. I'm not saying every Christian is a young earth creationist, but there are enough.

Ok but there are still Christians that are intellectuals. Christianity isn't going to make anyone less intelligent, but unintelligent Christians may be less educated. Atheism isn't going to make anyone more intelligent, but possibly more educated. Smart people gonna be smart, and dumb people gonna be dumb. Atheism just lets dumb people pretend to be smart

[Ducky]

Originally Posted by berlinetta

Ok but there are still Christians that are intellectuals. Christianity isn't going to make anyone less intelligent, but unintelligent Christians may be less educated. Atheism isn't going to make anyone more intelligent, but possibly more educated. Smart people gonna be smart, and dumb people gonna be dumb. Atheism just lets dumb people pretend to be smart

Of course atheism won't make people smart. I don't want to convert people to atheism because they will suddenly be smart. I want people to go out and search for the answers to whatever question they have. I want people to search for knowledge. If someone can actively work towards finding new answers and educating the world, while still calling themselves a Christian, then more power to them. Like Wreck, he's a perfect example. He believes in a God, but he also believes that science isn't lies perpetrated by the Jew run media to convert the masses to satanism or whatever. He seems logical and level headed, and therefore I'm not attacking him or the other aspects of religion that normally get attacked.

TL;DR I don't care if you believe in a magic sky man if you can also progress science. Or at least not hamper it.


Edit: because science

[Cobra S]